Because it's going to be grisly. And if you paid attention to the Kelly Thomas situation you can only assume they are cooking up a good story to justify shooting a young father with his two young girls in the car.

If this marine were black you would hear Rev Al Sharpton and Jessie Jackson all over the news stations asking for answers.

Manny is/was African American, and his daughters are my daughters' classmates; one is my daughter's best friend. He was an honorable man and devoted father expecting a new baby. He made so many sacrifices to give his daughters a good education by commuting 45 minutes every morning to a mostly white neighborhood, at 4-4:30 a.m., from Camp Pendleton. If he did something for you that was costly to him, he was too proud to accept compensation for it. He was a gentleman who got strength from his Christian faith. He leaves a widow and soon to be 4 kids.

Now I don't know what happened in this case, and I don't know the incompetent and impotent sheriff's deputy who thought he needed to fatally shoot an unarmed black man to defend himself from who knows what. I do know that (1) there were several other options available to the deputy, and (2) I cannot believe that a young man of Manny's temperament, in his life situation, would intentionally provoke violent action from a trigger-happy cop. Nevertheless, we need to wait for the facts to come out - or get swept under a rug, since this is South Orange County after all. At the least, he is an idiot who made a fatal mistake by not following protocol, and committed a civil rights violation. At worst, he is a murderer who deserves the most severe penalty allowed by the laws of our state.

I will do my best to keep this alive, even if the media won't. Like others, I want the truth.

BKM - Like your comment says - you dont know what happened - why not wait to hear the whole story...? And why are you calling the Deputy incompetent and impotent? Why do you say this marine had to drive 45 mins to a "white" school when there is plenty 5 mins away in San Clemente. Your also wrong when you say YOU KNOW there were several other options....you were not there !!! So you DONT know. 2) Why you playing the race card? White school / black unarmed man...etc. The girls were there and they did talk....and the truth will be told. So quit slamming people before you know the whole story !!!!!!!

Jeff, you keep making these ridiculous comments over and over again. Try keeping them to yourself. When you have something different to say, say it.

Kelly Thomas.

You sound a little jealous Jeff. You obvious have had some run ins
with the law to know they are big and bald. Come on ....tell your story !!!

Margaret
Open your shut eyes...Look at the picture before putting your mouth in gear!!!

So you were there and saw all this happen?

You're a real piece of garbage. Killing a man in front of his two daughters because he didn't obey you in not acceptable. You have no idea what this Marine has been through. How do you know he wasn't having a PTSD incident? He could very well be mentally ill and you think it's ok to kill him in front of his two daughters? Do you even know how this is going to effect them for the rest of their lives? And you think it was worth it? Go to hell woman.

People, remember to be respectful of other commenters. This is an emerging story with a lot of unknown factors. Please remember to be courteous.

I can't believe your justifying his death! They didn't use a taser, pepper spray not even a warning shot but a kill shot. They killed him because he didn't obey a simple order like "get down on the ground"! Your just as crazy as the deputy...bet you're a trigger happy fool that can't use other ways of force because YOU THINK you felt like your life was in danger.

You do not have the facts of what happen, you know why? So the police have time to clean up the story for public relations reasons. Lets see if they release the dash-cam video...

I'm sorry Peter but the average person can't respect the comments of "Val Hopkins". His attitude and tone towards someones death is more disrespectful. I'm speaking for all the Marines here that just read his comments. "this bastard can go to hell".

excuse me!!! You do not know this man I call friend. He was a good christian man that would do everything to protect his daughters. He ALWAYS followed orders, he was NOT above the law. This was a murder by police and they are covering their asses!!

Please do tell me that you were there when the officer was there ordering him to do all of this things? How do you know this all actually happened? If it is taking such a a long time for them to release the evidence and story of what happened, there is obviously much more to the story. From what has been sent to the media, it all just doesn't make sense. We are not scrutinizing the police department, but why is it that it is taking them so long to answer questions regarding something that just seems so cut and dry. There are only so many ways to slice the story.

to DARLENE - if this man would do ANYTHING for his daughters....then tell me why he got out of the car and ran from it LEAVING BEHIND his daughters !!!!!!!

DAVID PEREIRA - This man never went to war.....he doesnt have PTSD...he had a office job. You dont know what really happened. The daughters do, and they made their statements. YOU GO TO HELL DAVID !!!

you are an idiot!!!! a cop can just shoot someone because they dont do what they say....

Mr. phd.......your right...you cant sway those girls stories...and they did tell the truth. The truth about this so called perfect Marine will come out.

And you said he better watch out because one of these Marines will get pissed and get him........are you trying to say these Marines are unstable? Hmmm go figure.

Val..
I guess it's awesome that you can give an accurate account of what happened? How do you know that Sgt Loggins didn't have on headphones and couldn't hear the commands? Remember, Sgt Loggins turned and went back to his SUV after initally heading toward the track. Could it have been that the Deputy didn't have on his lights (from the patrol car) and Sgt Loggins thought that he was just another runner? No, military members aren't above the law, which is suprising, given Sgt Loggins background, character, and attitude, that he would disobey an order from an officer. I hate that you have thrown his military upbrining into question and deemed it as wah wah BS.. Let's get it right.. He was a Marine.. Not a Soldier. Clearly Val, you aren't a veteran (and just because your dad or grandpa was in the military umpteen years ago doesn't count).. hahahaha.. Idiot!

Sorry to pop your bubble Val, refusing to obey a deputies instructions is NOT considered a life threatening situation and the use of deadly force is NOT authorized! and trying to throw the "school zone" argument into the picture is just hogwash... How many children are walking to and from a school at 4:30 AM?

I am also curious about the double take. in one part of the article the deputy is claimed to have been in "fear of his life", and then "Deputy Says He Shot 'Irrational' Marine to Protect Kids in Car" (I saw nothing in the article mentioning farm animals, (a "kid" is a baby goat)) I will guess that the Sgt entering the parking lot inturrupted the deputies dream time..

So Val , you believe the police now have the right to shoot you when you ignore their commands.
Tha't rediculous.

Lindsey
I too had experiences like you. That is why ALL cops should police there own because these memories last forever. Not only that but they are passed down through generations.

Do we know if he was white, black, asian or 'other'? I haven't seen anything on that.

A few family members have commented he was black. Nothing official. Not that I think it matters but to give you the insight I have.

Exactly......the truth needs to be known and I promise to keep this going even if the media doesn't. Manny was not above the law, he followed orders and again was a deeply religious family man that sacrificed his personal wants and comforts to give the best for his family. He was in school for Nursing at Stanbridge College ...I believe that says A LOT about what kind of person he was. RIP my beautiful friend...PTN will not be the same without you.

Give me a break Bailey !!!

So tell me Jeff......who do you call when you need help?

Hey Jeff. What happened to you? And where did it happen? I've yet to see overweight deputies on scooters anywhere in Orange County. And if you don't think that spending tax dollars on a police force is necessary, then what do you suggest we do to handle the crime, gangs, drug dealers, not to mention the prisoners? Are you willing to do the job for less money? Would you do the job for any price? Can you even handle the job day in and day out? I seriously doubt it. What happened to this marine is tragic. I am not condoning it. All I am saying is that we should wait for the complete investigation, wait until the facts are made public before passing judgement on anyone.

And YES they did tell the truth.

I think an official statement would go a LONG way.

Well, I can't speak for others, but I don't hate law enforcement. They protect me and my family. I just don't like it when certain, mainly poorly trained and gutless individuals in law enforcement abuse their power. They have guns. I don't, and I am 99.99% sure Manny didn't either. Manny would bring my girls home from school regularly.

I am neither white nor black. Manny was a black man in a predominantly white neighborhood wary of minorities like him. But even "highly educated Asians with Ivy League degrees" get harassed by police throughout South OC. I know this firsthand. Hold your breath and wait for the facts to come out. I do know that this deputy had other options. And he didn't use them. He used fatal force in a situation where there were no other witnesses except for the victim's daughters. I would take the OCSD's version of the story with a grain of salt. They will close ranks and defend themselves and one of their own vigorously. I just hope the DA does his job properly.

Duvall - they did say on the news there will be a full investigation. You are right about other types of less than lethal ways to handle different situations. Maybe this particular situation happened so very fast that there was not enough time to go into the trunk and get the bean bag rounds (which have to be shot from a shotgun) or other less lethal items. The Deputies are not required to carry a stun gun or a tazer gun,....it is an option. Your right everyone needs to just stand down and wait for the real story. The two daughters that were in the car DID tell what happened.

BKM - why do you say this Deputy was "poorly trained and gutless". Your right Manny didnt have a gun. Again....why play the race card???? San Clemente is not predominantly white. There are more Hispanics. This had nothing to do with race. Once again you are wrong.....you DONT know if the Deputy had other options or not....you were not there. Sometimes things happen so fast that "other options" are not possible. Maybe his daughters were in harm??????? How come he got out and LEFT those children behind?

They aren't specifically "hiding" things. They are bound by confidentiality. The U.S.M.C. isn't a party to the event. They are, for no better word, the "employer " of the victim. The victim's family or next of Kin should be entitled to certain information but not until the investigation is complete. The information on this incident will not be quickly or easily forthcoming. The more the pressure the more tight lipped they will be.

Who are you ^ to say such things. Nobody has to explain anything to you until the investigation is over. They are not hiding anything. If this man was such a Christian and good guy.......why would he get out of his car and LEAVE his children in it as he ran from the car !!!!!!!!!

Hey YOYO......get your facts right.

I wondered that too. Kinda early for a run, and a long way from base where they must have a track.

the girls were 9 and 14.

You dont take a 9 and 14 year old child out to make them run at 4:30 in the morning !!!!

No one said he MADE them go out and run, Margaret. Did you ever think that maybe they LIKED to run, and maybe just maybe because he was a busy Marine/Student/Father/Husband that maybe this was the only time of the day they COULD go run?

That's what I wanna know...take your young daughters out to run when it is still dark outside? As a mom of a 9 year old - I think that is absurd. Even if they WANTED to join him - it is NOT appropriate.

Remember there were two children who witnessed this. They did see it happen. They did speak up. You will hear the final story AFTER the final investigation.

Again.... IF YOU LOOK AT ALL THE PICTURES OF THE YUKON, THE FRONT END DAMAGE IS JUST LIGHTLY SCRAPED WITH SOME PAINT SCUFFS..THIS DOES NOT LOOK LIKE A SUV THAT "CRASHED RECKLESSLY AT A HIGH SPEED THROUGH A METAL BAR GATE" .... LOOK AT THE SUV PICTURES! OBVIOUSLY YOU DONT KNOW WHAT HAPPENED!

I agree and this is what I've been trying to say. We ALL need more facts and some of you ARE saying hurtful things about the victim AND the Deputy. I'm not defending him or her but none of this banter is helping anyone except those that are small minded about Law Enforcement and want to take any moment to disparage those that are there to protect us. And yes they do protect us no matter what you may think.

Julie, you mean the photo of the Yukon where the POLES ARE ATTACHED TO THE FRONT OF THE CAR????

Thank you for posting about your friend. I'm so very sorry for your loss and his family and friends. I could not imagine what they and you are going through. To the friends and family reading this- I have put in a prayer request at saddleback church for you.
I have been following this story and it makes me sick. I won't even comment on the negative posts. Seems they are most probably some sort of law enforcement . This is why some law abiding citizens have distrust for them. There are wonderful honest hard working officers- and then there are the rest.
Just know it sounds like he was amazing. I'm so very sorry and I cannot to hear the facts.
Again I am so sorry for your loss and that you have to hear his good name being slandered.

Couldn't agree more! The negative comments does hurt the ones that have grown to love Manny. I just hope that they get to the bottom of this. Truly a heartbreaking story.

That footage may not exist if the deputy didn't have the camera on.

I am not sure, I am older, and perhaps a lil senile, but wasn't Hunt supported by the corrupt out of state crook Joe Arpaio?

Not a big deal, but I get offended when I see a series of sales pitches posted as comments!

Actually, Yes I do. TRAK has a bad reputation for covering up for any law enforcement or Republican Politician. The only reason he is pursuing only 2 of the Kelly Thomas murderers is there was a BUS FULL of impartial witnesses to the event and other agencies (such as the FBI were also investigating) I do not wish to dig up the facts but I recall more than 1 or 2 jail deaths that OC deputies were obviously behind!

What on earth are you talking about PEOPLEWATCHER - the Sheriffs Training Academy does not train about apologies or explanations, that is left for the Department to do, and they do...if and when one is needed.

Margaret, Let's have all the people who have witnessed a apology by a on duty deputy chime in and show how often that happens. You are right that it is left for the department to do, and the training and culture created within that department doesn't feel that any apology is ever required or even appropriate if they feel they were doing there job, regardless if mistakes were made or not. I have had personal experience with this were I was pulled over and held at gunpoint by at least 50 officers on Pico by mistake. I was driving a white van. Fifty minutes earlier a jewelry store was robbed in NB and the thieves left in a gray van. Dicey as it was I was not hurt and when the original officer let me go he acted like he was doing me a favor not arresting me. I said I know what you were doing was your job but how about a "sorry for the trouble" he would not do it. Forty-five minutes of debate ensued, the deputy wouldn't budge. I am telling you this is a deep rooted pattern of behavior.

50 officers on Pico....I dont think so !!!!!

Nice Magaret, If you don't want to believe something just call a person a liar. Middle of the day about eight years ago, right in front of Albertson's shopping center all six lanes of Pico in both directions shut down for half and hour. My insight about how the deputies feel about if it is even possible for them to make a mistake when they feel they are doing their job correctly comes directly from the sergeant in that incident. If they can never make a mistake and this poor man died, it must have been his own fault, in the departments consciousness. Therefore it is just a hop skip and a jump to concoct a back story about speeding, erratic driving, feeling threatened. I am sorry that you don't see the danger of people with lethal force at their disposal who feel no need to explain what they do and own up to mistake when made.

Peoplewatcher, your comment is incorrect.

V Duvall, what part of my comments do you find incorrect. Most of what I said was a factual recounting of actual events and only two sentences of conjecture about this event. I don't believe my conjecture can be labeled incorrect at this point.

Sorry, there was no link to reply to Margaret Mueller, but the more I read her comments here the more I am starting to believe she (or he) is a PR hack for the OCSD.

Criticalthinker, I agree. There aren't even 50 uniformed deputies out of south operations at one time. I have had an apology from a deputy once. I was very appreciative.

V Duvall,
Of the estimated fifty not all were OCSD there were also several CHP and Border Patrol vehicles as well. Anyone in that area at that time would have remembered this event as it was like a scene from a movie.

Hello Thomas Paine.....You do raise some interesting concerns. However your misquoting of Jefferson makes me question your facts. Being a follower of Jefferson, when I read your quote I knew it couldn't be correct so I looked it up....this is the actual quote "In questions of power...let no more be heard of confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution." --Thomas Jefferson: Kentucky Resolutions, 1798.

I will tell you where he was shot. Point Blank range is what they teach in the Academy, Point Blank Range so that they can justify, the "I WAS IN FEAR OF MY LIFE," policy.
Now do you really believe that a fourteen year old and a nine year old will lie about something which they just saw happen to their Father.
If that be true then start the Race riots back again because no one will be safe and it will be an eye for an eye.
Face it, when I was on Active Duty, I use to pass by several times between the Oceanside Police Department in the early morning Hours without hesitation or harassment. What you have is someone who is lying through his teeth and it will come out when this goes to trial and it will go to trial.
Not only will he make a plea deal, but he will do some jail time within the confines of the penal system, but away from the General Population. He will have to make restitution to this Marine's family so he better start saving his money.
If I were you all in this area I would be looking out for the backlash that is coming, and it is coming such as the Regional Chapter of the NAACP, Al Sharpton, and others. People are getting tired of this and one day soon, this will boil over and do you believe for one minute that the men and women who protect this Country is going to be on the side of those who abuse it everyday, Statistics say no.

There are no more racial tensions now than have been here for years. SC has always been next door to Camp Pendleton. We have always had Marines 'of color' here and those that live at the north end of the base have kids that go to SCHS. Actually, the law does require us to obey an officer's verbal command. We don't know if he did or did not do that. Video cameras at the school? Probably not because there is no money for that.

Dr. Brock, Phd in what? Certainly not in psychology. You are instigating violence and racial tensions. Apparently the deputy was not close enough to shoot him at 'Point Blank range', as you say. You need to tone down your comments that promote racial tensions, it's inappropriate and I hope the "PATCH" sees that!

Thanks V, you sound like a former Police Officer. What else does the law require?? Presumption of innocence?? Due Process?? It looks like Sergeant Loggins received neither.
I bet the deputy got spooked by his kids in the car, either because they were waking up, or perhaps screaming something like 'Don't Shoot!!'. Even if the victim was obligated to obey police officer's verbal commands, the punishment for not doing so is certainly not immediate execution in the streets in front of his kids. The punishment fitting the crime is what I believe the law requires. What do you think the punishment should be for this deputy??
I can see the, 'I thought there was someone in the car with a gun' defense coming soon, or 'I thought I smelled marijuana', or 'he looked like he was on drugs after driving through the gate', or 'I heard a clicking noise like someone chambering a round in a gun in the car', or something else flimsy and hard to disprove.
The OCSD really ought to get ahead of this story in the media before they re-learn the lesson that the cover-up is worse than the crime.

Why do you keep trying to guess what happened. And come on......officers dont shoot people when they smell marijuana. They shoot when they are in fear for their lives or the life of someone else is in danger. They know what really happened. The children saw it all.

Margaret, the reason why I'm trying to guess what happened is because there is no official information coming from the official sources. Everyone is trying to figure out what happened. I'm just doing it out loud on Patch, whereas the police are getting their stories straight in private.
Why do you keep saying things as if you know more than what's been released, but you don't substantiate your credentials?? Have you personally talked to the kids who witnessed their Dad get blown away by the cops on Tuesday morning?? It's like you're an unofficial self-appointed police spokesman. I haven't counted, but I think you've made more Comments on this post than anyone else, and none of them speak to why you should be believed or taken seriously at all.

Notice that his wife is a lovely white woman and he is a striking black man... just sayin'

@Connie: If you're referring to the picture of Sgt. Loggins in his nursing scrubs, that isn't his wife.

It is routine for this, but if I know one thing, those girls will not waiver from that which displayed before them.
Just to let the Officer know, God is not dead. this Officer sowed something so evil and it will come back on him real soon, sorry to say that way, but evil things does have the tendency to come back.

they are trying as you were typing this to see if there was anything that was or could be utilized within the confines of the "I WAS IN FEAR OF MY LIFE," syndrome. Which is stupid. Karma, Karma, Karma, Karma.

If the camera was on, they will. Deputies are not REQUIRED to have the camera on all the time. It may have even been broken

Thanks Desimal, the 9-mil was my T/O weapon, too, and I scored a 386 on the Marine Corps Pistol Course. That's why I'm wondering why the deputy would approach the situation with gun drawn, as if there's a need for deadly force when someone runs through a gate at 4:45 a.m., because at that point it's hard to de-escalate the violence potential and get back to just questioning the motorist, etc.
My guess is the manual doesn't say pulling your gun out is authorized in situations like this, and the cops are grasping for evidence to try to justify his overreaction.

IGNORANT

Margaret, you do seem to be really confident in information that hasn't been publicized. I have to take issue with your repeated characterization of the victim running away from authority and not protecting his kids in the car, as if he had some reason to flee the cops and that's supposed to give the deputy a reason to feel threatened. From the info in the story, he had driven through the gate, and was out of the car walking towards the fence surrounding the athletic fields. I imagine he was probably thinking, "Why is the gate closed today, and can I still go run on the track or is that closed, too?" At that point he came back to the car, which is when the cop fatally shot him. So I don't appreciate you insinuating that this Marine was trying to flee the law, or that he wasn't man enough to protect his family, and I don't even know the guy (but I was stationed at MCBH KBay, too, in the late '90s).
BTW, what's so wrong about taking your daughters to go run early in the morning?? It is supposed to be dangerous?? Are you supposed to be worried about getting shot by the cops at that time of day?? San Clemente is like Marine town, a grunt Marine town. If you don't know that Jarheads like to exercise while most people are still sleeping, than you have no business being a cop in San Clemente.

Margaret, you're beginning to scare me a bit. I'm not sure why you would assume I don't understand that they talked to the children. Not sure where you got that in my post. I believe to, over and over, accuse this man of running away from his children, write him off as a person "just" doing a "desk job" for the Marine Corps is purposefully trying to make him out to be a poor father and less than average Marine. Yes, I read that in your posts and question why you have the need to do this. I've seen nowhere evidence that he took off running, was told to stop or what the children have said. For all I know, he ran away from the car TO PROTECT his children. For all I know, he was told to run/walk away at gun point. And for all I know, he could have run like you said... but do you think it's helpful for his grieving family and friends to see you -- over and over-- stating that he abandoned his kids running? Don't you think that's a bit cold-hearted given what those girls you keep bringing up must be going through? "You and others don't have the real truth" Do you have information the rest of us don't? I see you worked for the Whittier PD... perhaps you have a vested interest? I never bashed the deputy. I'm pointing out that we don't know what happened and it's not helpful to hurt this family and his friends with our posts.

You're right... your quotes below really send the message that you feel bad....

"if this man would do ANYTHING for his daughters....then tell me why he got out of the car and ran from it LEAVING BEHIND his daughters !!!!!!!"
"This man never went to war.....he doesnt have PTSD...he had a office job. You dont know what really happened. The daughters do, and they made their statements. YOU GO TO HELL DAVID !!!"
"And you said he better watch out because one of these Marines will get pissed and get him........are you trying to say these Marines are unstable? Hmmm go figure.""
"If this man was such a Christian and good guy.......why would he get out of his car and LEAVE his children in it as he ran from the car !!!!!!!!!"

If this is how you respond when you feel bad for people who have lost loved ones... yikes.

Cindy- I could not agree more. Disgusting .

From Margaret: "CINDY CALLAHANFARNUM - I have not said anything cold hearted about this man. I have said over and over that his poor children were in the car and they saw everything. Dont you think they have spoken to the children? That is just common practice that you interview everyone involved. I have asked why this perfect man would run from a veh and leave his children behind when a police officer tells you to stop. That is not cold hearted.....Im asking you all that know him. I am just stating things that are basic.... I am not violating anything nor am i hindering any investigations. Everything I have mentioned has been in the news already. Like I have said in many of my posts....I feel bad for everyone that has lost a loved one...I just have questions too and you all seem to be bashing this Deputy when YOU and others dont have the real truth."

Margaret, I have wholeheartedly felt that you have been rude, unnecessarily critical of this man, harmful to his family and offensive to posters. I do not regret standing up to you because I feel it was the right thing to do, but I am sorry to hear that there are people who have taken standing up to you to a whole different, inappropriate level.

DITTO

Again, the camera in the police car MAY NOT HAVE BEEN WORKING, It could have been turned off or broken. Just because there is a camera in the patrol units, it doesn't mean there is video!!!!!

camera or no camera lets be real this story is a little sketchy. they wont even say waht the threat was. Why because it was not great enough to use deadly force!

awesome!!!!

Do you have any other suggestions for contacts?

I still haven't heard about this even on the local news. Where is it?

It hasn't been on the local news which is why I am trying to blow the story up. I encourage anyone with a little free time to send the story to any news agency you feel could help. It's easy. GO to the agency's website and look for the contact us link (usually at the bottom) and fire away.

good job!

can you let us know what they say?

Hopefully the will read it. I will keep you updated.

'Race had nothing to do with this'?? Margaret, that right there really shows your ignorance.
I was telling my wife about this story, and she cuts me off and says, 'Was he Mexican??" I said, "No, he was Black." She's like, "Oh, well, there you go..."
Race is often a factor. More than a lot of us want to admit to .
I bet one thing OCSD doesn't want us to know right now is that the deputy was white. (I don't know if he was, and I have zero inside knowledge of this incident or anyone involved, but if I was a betting man...)

I'm not playing the race card. But Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton LOVE to play the race card and if I want to get someone one fired up I'm picking the easiest to torch. Get it?

are you on FB?

Lindsey,
You could blow it up.

I wouldn't lump V. Duvall in with Margaret Mueller. V. sounds like he knows what he's talking about and wants to see the truth see the light of day/court. He's probably a retired cop, and an honorable one. Margaret on the other hand...

I'm not trying be funny, and I will hold you to your word. About the race thing, unfortunately perception is just as important as reality. The fact that it looks like the cops gunned down an unarmed Black man in the streets in front of his kids is something you'd almost expect to hear about the NYPD a few years ago, or the LAPD under Chief Daryl Gates. If you fill in to that story that the cop was white, it looks a lot worse, and a lot more racially-motivated. The Sheriff's Dept really does have a limited time to get ahead of this story in the media before the story becomes not just another awful tragedy, but another cover-up by the police of protecting their own and harboring officers who are too violent. Look what's happening up in Fullerton right now. I would think they had learned something from that tragedy already...

George, I am not nor have I ever been a law enforcement officer. No one in my family is or was a law enforcement officer and you offend me by saying I am being paid by law enforcement to defend them online. I am a regular person like most here and I am just engaging in my right to free speech. I am free to voice my opinion, aren't I? You seem to have no problem voicing your opinion.

Thank you Aaron

James
Do you write fiction?

Nancy & others I am not a coward. I have not backed into a corner. I am stepping away from this so called patch. People are allowed to make their own personal comments on here....like everyone else has done. HOWEVER THIS IS NOT A PLACE FOR PEOPLE LIKE NANCY AND OTHERS TO INVESTIGATE....TR.ACT ME DOWN...OR FIND OUT WHERE I LIVE.......AND MAKE PHONE CALLS TO MY EMPLOYERS AND MY HOUSE. Because I have an opinion and have voiced it You have gone way too far !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Margaret, I agree with you that it is completely inappropriate to use terms like "POS" or "Pig" regarding the officer. And I think it is very wrong to call employers or your home. But you MUST take some culpability for the way people have reacted to you. When you shout "GO TO HELL" or call people liars or make disparaging (and unsubstantiated) remarks about the deceased, anybody here has to wonder what your connection is to law enforcement. Exactly what is your reason to loathe the Marine? He did not shoot at or otherwise injure the officer. Your wrath would be much more understandable if that was the case. Nevertheless, you say nasty things about someone who might be, after all, a victim of an officer's mistake without any regard to those hurting from his death. Again, it is wrong for you to be harassed at home or work, but your over-the-top and extremely rude "opinions" make you fair game for criticism--on this blog.

Premeditated? Chris, please. Look up the definition of premeditated murder. You are sounding silly.

I did find it funny that she joined patch only after this story was beginning to have legs.

Shocking. Haha you can always tell . She is what is wrong w law enforcement. Stubborn ,one sided above the law and above all of us.. Or so they think

Bill, do you know that for a fact? I'm curious.

Bill has no facts !!!

ALL....You find what funny.....I had never heard of the Patch before I saw it one day on line. I have never teweeted or blogged anything before. This is the first time I have put my opinion on here. I feel it is kinda funny people think I have "gone into a corner" after people are saying things about me. I am in no corner....but I do have other things in life I tend to...not just the computer/

There are actually four children(including the child who is yet to be born), that are without their father. I agree, and I am very willing to show this family love and support.

Mary, thank you for focusing the public back on one of the positive things we CAN do -- help this family. I am certain the Marine's unit will be establishing some support. Hopefully we'll all find a real way to help this mother, children and extended family deal with this tragedy.

THe family will certainly need ongoing support. Psychological, spiritual, monetary, and just plain friendship and understanding

I have no GOD complex for anyone. Its funny how I cant leave my comments of what I think.....but everyone else can call this Deputy a pig, scum, POS and all the other names he has been called.

This Marine was not perfect like many of you think.........This Deputy is not perfect.....nobody is perfect.

From what I've read above and people's Comments, it seems that he often took his daughters to school at that early hour to work out on the track, and that the gate he ran through was not normally locked. After driving through the gate, he stopped and got out, probably to see what he had hit, and whether the track/athletic fields were really closed. At that point, it seems the deputy was out of his car, near the Yukon, and then the victim came back towards the Yukon and got shot. It would really be nice to see the dashboard camera video to accurately reconstruct the timeline of events. It doesn't seem that odd that he would come back to his car that he knew his two daughters were in, especially if a cop was already yelling at him/them, and even more so if it was a cop with a gun drawn. The instinct to protect your kids is strong.
I doubt he had a stroke or seizure, but maybe. Speeding down the road at that hour doesn't really add up, and driving through a locked gate doesn't sound right, either. Too bad he's not alive and just being treated for a medical condition if that's what actually happened. This of this is all just conjecture on my part. I wasn't there and don't know any of the people involved personally.

Connie,
When I initially heard this story.. this is the first thing that I said.. Did he have a seizure or something because this was totally out of character.

@ Connie I just wanted to reply about ur statement about his wife being white...His wife is a black woman the picture you see is him with one of his classmates

If I hit the fence I might get out and be yelling at myself for being so dumb and take a short walk to kool off so that my kids did not see it.

<3 I agree completely. My heart and prayers go out to this family. God Bless them in this unbearable time.

I'm sorry you took it in that way. My apologies if I offend. I've worked all my life with soldiers of all races, creeds and nationalities and I would do anything in my power for them. However hard we try, white against black injustice still happens occasionally. Also apologizing for misinterpreting the photo of the SGT with his colleague.

You are planning a memorial service at the "Police Department"? Seems odd to me. The school would be a better place, don't you think? It's no longer the San Clemente police Department. THey closed somewhere around 1993 or 1994, when it became the Orange County Sheriff's department. Just FYI

I'm in Alaska. I'll be with you in my prayers.

Jeff, you sound ridiculous "Cops" have to have a HS diploma and most of them are college grads and former military. Mostly Marines. What information would you hope to gain from a public hearing? They can't have been convicted of a felony so what good would a rap sheet be?

life changes people

Correct, no vigil on Sunday. http://sanclemente.patch.com/articles/vigil-for-marine-killed-by-deputy-postponed

Jeff, don't you know that the ocsd kept all but one police officer when it took over the SCPD? They all stayed. Most transferred out to different assignments eventually. Now with the passage of time they are mostly retired. It's been about 18 or so years. They're not coming back.

Jeff I'm not a "HE". I'm an ordinary person with some knowledge and insight.

I'm honored that you are so sure that I'm paid t do this.. Like I said, just an ordinary person with knowledge and insight.

I've been on several jurys. Three of them ended up in the person pleading to a lesser charge, in the middle of the trial, so no decision was necessary, one hung and one not guilty. I'd say that's pretty much across the board.

Well Jeff, That's interesting. You say I'm a cop, Cops don't do jury duty. They're exempt. What kind of "service job" do YOU have? Looks like you're not doing your civic duty, or maybe you are not telling the truth on the form you have to send in or to the judge when you are in the jury box. Looks like some untruthfulness somewhere around you.

Whether or not the system is corrupt.....it's mostly the jury that makes or breaks a case. If the jurors are less than capable/competent, which from what I have seen....many are quite less, the system fails. It's not necessarily about money, it's much more about the jury and the choosing of the jury. I sat in on a hearing where one of the jurors was actually nodding out and no one said or did anything about it. You mentioned OJ, Jeff. Do you remember that some jurors, and it only takes one juror, felt that DNA was junk science? Jeff...you didn't say whether you have done jury duty, only that you don't now. If you haven't been through the process and observed it personally, you can't know too much about it. Yes it needs fixing!

I forgot one other reason. Convicted felons cannot do jury duty, or vote for that matter.

We have written these subsequent articles:
http://sanclemente.patch.com/articles/deputy-who-shot-marine-says-loggins-was-irrational-and-children-were-endangered

http://sanclemente.patch.com/articles/deputies-union-defends-marine-shooting

http://sanclemente.patch.com/articles/bewildered-classmate-remembers-late-sgt-loggins-as-kind

http://sanclemente.patch.com/articles/pendleton-col-criticizes-response-to-marine-killing

http://sanclemente.patch.com/articles/darren-sandberg-deputy-who-killed-camp-pendleton-marine-is-identified-manny-loggins

http://sanclemente.patch.com/articles/chamber-starts-fund-for-loggins-family

http://sanclemente.patch.com/articles/mayor-extends-condolences-to-loggins-family

http://sanclemente.patch.com/articles/police-expert-loggins-shooting-raises-thorny-questions

Actually, there hasn't been a lot more to report (see the links in my answer to Manasseh Mhishi). The memorial at Camp Pendleton was closed to the media and public, though the L.A. Times pieced together an account from sources who attended it. The family has still chosen not to speak to the media.
We have confirmed that the family has retained a prominent civil rights attorney who is a partner in the Cochran Firm, the late Johnny Cochran's law firm.
Many of the investigative materials won't be released until the DA's investigation is concluded. The release of the name of the deputy involved in the shooting was mandated by courts, according to the attorney Patch consulted, but other documents and reports are protected as part of the ongoing investigation.
Patch will continue to follow this story aggressively.

Hi Adam, I think the lack of updates on this case IS the update. The story becomes at this point about what is taking so long, and goes from tragedy to cover-up/mis-handling of said tragedy. For my part, other than verbal jousting with other Patch Commenters, I submitted a request for the OCSD's Use of Force Policy, through the Public Records Act process, since simply asking for it at my local Police Services office wasn't going to produce anything meaningful. I also contacted Supervisor Bates and asked for an update from her level. They just had a Board of Supervisors meeting yesterday, and the next one is next Tuesday. The deadline for submitting written Public Comments to the Board of Supervisors meeting is Friday (if you can't make the Tuesday meeting in Santa Ana).

Appreciate your righteously thought out comment. I am correct.
Next I will tell you how to lower gas prices with no one losing out if I can get two people to ask me. It is so simply that we could get rid of congress and put me in the wh and I would eliminate an awful lot of waste..

Hi Bo Bo, I would think your oil price-fixing idea seems a little too far to the Left for most people in this country. It sounds like something Hugo Chavez would do in Venezuela, effectively nationalizing the oil and gas industries, based on the mineral rights being socialized national property. Also, if you're thinking about running for President, the filing deadline for the June Primary is coming up soon...
BTW, the OCSD Use of Force policy just landed in my Inbox. 9-page PDF, fairly easy to read, revised last month, just waiting to see if I'm going to get into any trouble re-posting it before doing so...

Bo Bo, That's actually mentioned near the top of the OCSD Use of Force policy, how it's generally adopted nationally according to standards bodies that govern that kind of stuff on a national basis.
Regardless of who it's written by, if it's in effect as current law at the time of an incident, then it's in effect at the time of an incident. If you don't think it's right, then use the appropriate channels to change it, or leave the jurisdiction, or 'deal with it'.

I guess technically it's more Policy than Law, but it appears to be policy with the force of Law, I would think. There's nothing jumping out at me clearly about the need to use less than lethal force before using deadly force, but it's in there in as many words. This is the verbatim policy on when OCSD can start shooting their guns:
300.4.2 DEADLY FORCE APPLICATIONS
While the use of a firearm is expressly considered deadly force, other force might also be considered deadly force if the deputy reasonably anticipates and intends that the force applied will create a substantial risk of serious physical injury or death. Use of deadly force is justified in the following circumstances:
(a) A deputy may use deadly force to protect himself/herself or others from what he/she reasonably believes would be an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury.
(b) A deputy may use deadly force to stop a fleeing suspect when the deputy has probable cause to believe that the suspect has committed, or intends to commit, a felony involving the infliction or threatened infliction of serious bodily injury or death, and the deputy reasonably believes that there is an imminent or future potential risk of serious bodily injury or death to any other person if the suspect is not immediately apprehended. In this case, deputies shall give some warning, if feasible, prior to the use of deadly force. (Example: "Police/Sheriff’s department! Stop or I’ll shoot!).

Well than the deputy is innocent because the policy is about HIS perception and I do not have a crystal ball to tell me what he is thinking. "Reasonably believes" is the key wording. He had a right to execute the unarmed man sitting in his car.

Hi Bo Bo, I think what Ms. Sc. is saying about you being all over the place relates to you now saying that the Deputy is innocent. (I understand you're being somewhat sarcastic, but not really, based on the wording of the OCSD Use of Force policy.)
I think the key thing about being reasonable is you have to get other people to agree with you that it's reasonable. The Use of Force policy defines reasonable as what another police officer would consider reasonable, so if they're going to say what Deputy Sandberg did was the right thing, it's like saying every cop would act similarly in a similar situation, and I hope most OCSD officers don't agree that it's okay to kill and unarmed man in front of his kids that's not threatening/attacking Police (just because you think he's 'irrational' and will definitely hurt his kids/self/others, etc). I don't want cops driving around thinking they can make that kind of a snap judgement and execute citizens without stepping up the violence level and using less than lethal force before shooting to kill. The Use of Force policy doesn't seem to require that kind of 'reasonable' escalation of force. I think it should, especially if Deputy Sandberg gets off based on his sole discretion to determine imminent danger and go immediately to shooting to kill, without using a taser first, or making a warning shot, or something. Do they not know any way to incapacitate potentially dangerous suspects without killing them?? What year is it??

Bo Bo, thank you for your reply. This tragedy is slowly unfolding and that is what is frustrating to citizens. The long awaited reply from law enforcement, the safety of the children ignored, does not paint a pretty picture for San Clemente's finest. I don't feel good about this story at all on either sides. I never knew Manny nor his normal daily habits, it just seems a little off balance with the strange hour, and how can you walk, read the Bible in the dark and why? Why did the children say their father was acting differently? Many questions. I still scold law enforcement. This did not have to be a life or death situation...and I too want the DashCam to be held as viable evidence. The silence of the Orange County Sheriff's Department is rapidly losing the respect of the people they serve. Shame.

Hey Jeff, Apparently there's a bank hostage situation in progress right now in Buena Park. I think that's the kind of situation the Use of Force policy is worded for in terms of rapid escalation of force when lives are in danger. I think they're going to have a hard time justifying that a reasonable Peace Officer would agree that lethal force was immediately necessary in the Sgt. Loggins case, when he wasn't armed, wasn't attacking anyone, and they hadn't tried anything less lethal than shouting verbally before firing away. I would think shooting through the driver's side window, exiting through the windshield, shattering it and making it hard to drive away, would have been better and easily feasible in that case. If he still tried to drive off after that, than maybe lethal force should have been considered, probably after trying to tase him (if he got out and kept disobeying verbal commands or coming at the Deputies).

Here's the factors they're supposed to consider. Think about how many apply to Sgt. Loggins and see if shooting him dead seems reasonable from what's been disclosed so far:

300.2.3 FACTORS USED TO DETERMINE THE REASONABLENESS OF FORCE
When determining whether or not to apply any level of force and evaluating whether a deputy has used reasonable force, a number of factors should be taken into consideration. These factors include, but are not limited to:
(a) The conduct of the individual being confronted (as reasonably perceived by the deputy at the time).
(b) Deputy/subject factors (age, size, relative strength, skill level, injury/exhaustion and number of deputies vs. subjects).
(c) Influence of drugs/alcohol (mental capacity).
(d) Proximity of weapons.
(e) Time and circumstances permitting, the availability of other options (what resources are reasonably available to the deputy under the circumstances).
(f) Seriousness of the suspected offense or reason for contact with the individual.
(g) Training and experience of the deputy.
(h) Potential for injury to citizens, deputies and suspects.
(i) Risk of escape.
(j) Other exigent circumstances.
While various degrees of force exist, each deputy is expected to use only that degree of force reasonable under the circumstances to successfully accomplish the legitimate law enforcement purpose in accordance with this policy.

Chris
This policy you state is absolutely worthless. Why??
Any time the words.....include, but are not limited to: ----(as reasonably perceived by the deputy at the time).
This puts everything under the deputies command. Who is anyone to counter say what was in his mind at the moment???

Bo Bo, I wouldn't say the policy is worthless. The reasonableness is just that, that the judgement has to be reasonable, based on objective criteria, stuff taught in training, verifiable by available witnesses/evidence, and is not a license to do anything the Deputy feels right at the time. It's probably what is taking so long, the fact that they can't reasonably justify it, and the DA is so reluctant to go against the cops, but they have to know deep down this is way over the line, and not going to be accepted as justified. I think if it would have been judged as being justified, it would have come back right away and the Deputy would have been cleared and back on the job quickly...

Chris
What am I missing??? The policy you wrote says, "as reasonably perceived by the deputy at the time".
Soooo he will say what he said about the children.. Case over.

Bo Bo, I think you're missing the legal definition of the word 'reasonably'. It's not carte blanche to do whatever you want, act on any whim as you see fit as long as you're in uniform/on duty. It has to be reasonable, meaning makes sense based on what information was available and what you've been trained to do. I doubt there's anything in the training saying you should shoot an unarmed man who's not attacking you. I bet there is stuff in the training about other ways to disable a vehicle or disfuse a potentially dangerous situation other than shooting the driver. Tasers? Warning shot? Blocking a car with a Police vehicle? Shooting out the windshield?? PITT manuever? Spike strips?? That electrical thing that disables a car's electrical system rendering it undrivable?? Opening the car door and getting the kids out of harms way?? If any of these actions were reasonably warranted and feasible, and not used, I think it's a pretty clear case that a crime has been committed.
If it was an easy case to close based on whatever the Deputy says he was feeling at the time, it would have been closed by now.

No I don't think he is going to lie....precisely my point.

Terry, how closely have you been following this story?? One of the later articles confirmed that the Police have the dashcam video. It may have been the ABC News piece that aired and is linked in another article on the San Clemente Patch. That's why so many people have been demanding to see the dashcam video, because it's been confirmed to exist. I don't want to see Sgt. Loggins actually get shot, but everything up to the shots firing should one day be in the public domain.
I don't know why the official story changed. I'm just speculating as to what information was available right away, and then what happened after the realizations set in from watching the dashcam video and interviewing the other Deputies present.

Okay, Terry, I'm sorry for sounding snarky. The thing about saying you're sorry, or your attorney advising you not to, it comes up in malpractice cases, too. The doctor's lawyers always tell them the same thing, to never say to the patient or their family that you're sorry, since it'll be taken as an admission of guilt in court. So they never say they're sorry, or flat out refuse to talk to the patient/family, and that usually ends up being the chief reason that the patient/family decides to sue, because the doctor never said they're sorry or showed any remorse/hint of wrongdoing. Some state actually had to pass a law saying that doctors could say they're sorry and it couldn't be used against them as an admission of guilt, to try to minimize malpractice suits, and therefore malpractice insurance costs.
Same thing applies here. The way the Police Union has publicly pinned this on the victim, and the Deputy had made no statement of sympathy/apology, etc, probably exactly because that's what their lawyers told them to do, is inexcusable to me. It shows that they have no intention of reforming themselves, that they're able to justify in their minds the killing of an unarmed, unthreatening man in front of his kids, and that is absolutely unacceptable to me.

Chris, I take it you submitted. Are you going to attend? If not, would it be appropriate to post your comments?

Thanks April, I'm not sure if I'll be able to make the Tuesday meeting. I did submit written Public Comments on Friday, in time to be included in Tuesday's meeting.
They have a 250-character limit. It says a copy is sent to every Supervisor, and I sent a copy to Supervisor Bates myself, but here there are:
What is the status of the investigation into the shooting death of Marine Corps Sergeant Manuel Loggins by OCSD Deputy Darren Sandberg in San Clemente on Feb 7th?? Is an indictment pending?? Is the DA busy with something more important??
I obviously have more to say on it than that, but that's 237 characters...

Beverly.....by reading these comments, I am afraid that you will find the majority are right there ready to condemn the police immediately. You are right..... It is sickening.
Those who try to point this out are labeled badly as well.

Beverly,
'Monday morning quarterbacks' is hardly appropriate in this situation. This isn't about sports, it's been four weeks since the killing, and there's been no official updates for weeks. The current frustration is over the time it's taking to bring justice to the situation, and the longer it drags out the more it smells of cover-up/corruption.
As far as why police officers go into law enforcement, I'm sure here are some truly rotten apples that try to become cops that hopefully never make it, but for the current situation, it's less about the individuals and their motivations than the institution at large, in my mind. I mean, you're always going to have bad apples, or cops that go bad on the job, but the important thing is how the organization deals with it (or doesn't deal with it).
I'd like to believe that Deputy Sandberg is not a brutal cop who was a ticking time-bomb waiting to go off tragically, that he truly just made a horrible judgement call under stressful conditions, in terms of over-estimating the danger posed by Sgt. Loggins and under-performing in terms of defusing a potentially violent situation peacefully, but you wouldn't think that from his lack of official statement (and the stated position of the Police Union). He doesn't seem sorry at all for having done this and was hiding in anonymity as long as possible. Of course that's what the lawyers advise, but if Sandberg wanted us to believe it was a mistake, he would have said so by now.

Thank you Beverly. I've given up trying to chat with these people. Too much BS between them.

Thank you Beverly. I've given up on trying to chat with these people. Too much BS between them

Good grief Jeff.....
You are absolutely correct about the fact that there are a few bad police....the police will tell you that but you use the 'many' word! . There are bad seeds everywhere and in every profession. There are serial killers working in convalescent hospitals. There are pedophiles in the Boy Scouts. That said.....What makes you imagine that this deputy was one of the bad ones determined to cause harm? There is a very big picture here and so much to consider...it is not so simple as a possible rogue deputy.

jeff
When I applied in 1999 for the LAPD I was given a battery of tests. Physical & mental. Then interviewed by three persons on my outlook on what was most troubling to me regarding the community. I think this was a way to weed out people just looking for a job with no foresight as to what was right and wrong.
When I applied for the sheriff's dept. the old dude who was an ex police officer I think or maybe actually working rejected me on the spot. He was totally arrogant
and his demeanor was above the law. I had such a distaste for him and I only interviewed for 10 minutes. The sheriff dept. had absolutely no public relations skills. Were other interviewers like this one? I have know idea but I imagine they are all trained this way.

Female LAPD detective on trial for murder.