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Sheriff's Blotter: Profanities — and Bread Knife — Fly

Plus: A Lysol-spray threat, reckless drivers, rowdy minors and other recent reports from the Orange County Sheriff's Department blotter for Lake Forest.

9:04 p.m. Thursday. Deputies were called to conduct a patrol check in the 23200 block of Orange Avenue. The report said a resident was disturbed by four minors who were running around a neighborhood and making loud noises with sticks. 

8:40 p.m. Thursday. A caller reported a disturbance in the 26300 block of Town Center Drive. According to the report, there appeared to be an argument between two neighbors, one of whom was threatening to spray Lysol in the other's face because of smoke coming from the residence. 

7:47 p.m. Thursday. A caller reported a reckless driver near Bake Parkway and Commercentre Drive. The report said a red Honda Civic was repeatedly racing up and down the street. 

5:33 p.m. Thursday. A caller reported a reckless driver near the El Toro Road and Jeronimo Road. The report stated that a green Chevy pickup was tailgating and swerving around other drivers. 

7:45 p.m. Wednesday. Deputies were called to assist a citizen in the 26500 block of Normandale Drive. Deputies were called to the Westridge Apartment complex because of an 11-year-old boy who threw a bread knife and screamed profanities at his sister. According to the report, the father discovered his son had just been suspended from school for attempting to harm another student. 

1:40 p.m. Wednesday. A caller reported a disturbance in the 24100 block of Pandora Street. The informant has reportedly been experiencing an ongoing issue with her neighbor trying to cut her trees down

10:56 a.m. Wednesday. A caller reported a non-cohabitant domestic violence incident in the 22700 block of Lake Forest Drive. The report stated that a man hit a woman who was holding a 14-month-old baby and then pushed the mother and child into a wall, causing injury to the woman. 

jenny December 01, 2012 at 03:55 PM
police are paid for putting their lives on the line at anytime and to answer all the ridiculous calls too. if they knew which calls were going to be life threatening and which were not they could send different levels of experts. it isn't like the movies, a domestic can escalate as well as a traffic stop. ask a cop and I bet that they would rather do the more exciting calls too but they answer whatever people call about.
jenny December 01, 2012 at 03:59 PM
and actually all of the above are good enough calls to go to-really some man punching a woman, not enough for you? cars driving crazy while your friends and family on road , neighbor dispute -who knows? loud kids could be handled by security or no one but the rest seem oj
HS December 01, 2012 at 04:03 PM
Maybe this week these are ridiculous, but sometimes these calls are not and they are dangerous. There has been violent crime here too (like everywhere). Don't be an idiot.
Michelle Thomas December 01, 2012 at 04:11 PM
We should be thankful that this is all that is happening here. In large cities the police won't even come out when your car is broken into. Cops should be paid more due to the disrespect and favor of cop killing that is going on right now.
Jim Gardner December 01, 2012 at 04:15 PM
Hi Jenny, You're absolutely right. I worked with the police for several years and one of the major areas I worked in was intervention in domestic disputes - husband and wife screaming at each other. As ordinary as this may seem, this was one of the main sources of police injuries and fatalities. Here in Lake Forest the incidence of police injuries is relatively low, but nonetheless police do put themselves "on the line" every time they answer a call and must be prepared for any eventuality.
Andromeda December 01, 2012 at 05:40 PM
Mr. Gardner, with all due respect there is absolutely no reason to pay cops like medical doctors and put ourselves on the road to public bankrupcy as a result. Police officers aren't even on the list of the 10 most dangerous jobs in America. It is more dangerous (according to statistics) to be a $9/hr convenience store clerk on the midnight shift than to be a cop. So if we are going to pay people based on the danger aspect of the job a convenience store clerk should be making $150,000 a year with a 4%@50 pension. By the time cops show up to family fights either someone is dead or the matter is pretty much resolved. Don't believe me? Ask any cop. So let's not paint a picture that is not entirely accurate.
jenny December 01, 2012 at 06:51 PM
police officers are not paid as much as doctors-we have both in the family and believe me, they are not in the same salary-worlds apart actually! but I suggest that you do ask police about their jobs and danger and then ask around to see if the citizens believe they are paid too much. don't forget to ask the victims, people from other countries, families of victims and go ahead an ask inmates. I grew up in a peaceful bubble where I didn't appreciate the police but have since opened my eyes to beyond the bubble. wake up angry andromeda. also ask about their education, while u may be right about requirements many have degrees and military. why shouldn't GED adults get the same chance for a job? applying does not mean hired anyway , aren't u a liberal non judgmental type?
Andromeda December 01, 2012 at 07:13 PM
"police officers are not paid as much as doctors...." Yes they are, Jenny. Look at an average cop with 10 years on the job and an average family practice physician with 10 years on the job. The cop makes about $145,000 a year (w/OT and other amentities tacked on), plus gets to retire at age 50 or 55 with a multi-million ($3M-$10M) pension. The average family doc makes about the same in salary and many do not receive pensions (only 401-K type retirements or they must fund their own retirements as small businessmen) and few of them can retire @ age 50 or 55. To become a medical doc one needed a minimum of 10 years of HIGHER education and needed to be exceptionally bright to make it through medical school. Most exit medical school with $300k-$500k in student loans. In contrast, most local police departments require an educational entry standard of a GED. All facts. A police officer job is not even one of the 10 most dangerous jobs in America, Jenny. Fact. "why shouldn't GED adults get the same chance for a job?" Would you like to be assigned a GED educated medical doctor, Jenny? I am not angry. Just telling you what IS, Jenny. You assume I'm angry because I tell you the facts and you disagree with my opinion. You don't like the truth. And I am far from a liberal. I am a truthful conservative and independent of any organized political party.
Jim Gardner December 01, 2012 at 07:41 PM
Hi Andromeda, I wasn't arguing that police officers are under or over paid, merely saying that intervention in domestic disputes was one of the leading causes of police injuries and fatalities. As far as police salaries and unfunded pension liabilities, I think the main problem is "pension spiking" in which police take an inordinate amount of overtime during their final year(s) which means they can earn more in retirement than they earned when they worked. Everyone knows this is a problem but no one addresses it. This pension spiking is not only a problem for the pension system, it is also a problem in other respects. Safety officers taking too much overtime can be prone to mistakes, resulting in injuries to themselves and others and sometimes resulting in lawsuits, thus increasing the costs to everyone.
Andromeda December 01, 2012 at 07:58 PM
I do respect your opinion, Mr. Gardner. You come across like an honest man with much integrity in your columns. And I always appreciate and honor that straightforwardness. However, on this topic I think you're missing some vital information. It's not just pension spiking, Mr. Gardner. It's a 3%@50 pension formula that allows a typical cop to retire at a very young age with a $3M-$10M pension treasure chest. If you look at a typical local cop in Orange County with 5-10 years on board the AVERAGE compensation (salary, medical, pensions and other add-ons) it's around $200,000 a year while the entry educational standard is a GED. That defies any logic when you consider the laws of basic employment economics. And, again, the job of a police officer is not even listed in the top 10 most dangerous jobs in America. When I was a boy a police officer was a blue-collared job and the pay was commensurate. In 2012 the job of a police officer is still a blue collared job but they are paid like medical doctors even minus the pension spiking. Now I am not anti-cop. We need cops in our society. I am not arguing that point. But they shouldn't be able to contribute to bankrupting the larger society because they wear a badge and carry a gun. And if you examine the cause of the recent California bankrupcies in local government public safety pay is one of the major causes. Not just police - but firefighters too. And you don't need a PhD to figure out why.
jenny December 01, 2012 at 07:59 PM
overtime is overtime and should be paid accordingly. 3-10 million, wow I hope you are right on that one! I will def have to look tht one up. I am just looking at the homes of doctors versus officers mostly because I don't look into salaries that closely so cannot tell you facts on that. I know that driving cars, construction and other jobs are more dangerous but police are different in that the danger they face is other people-it is different. I don't know how to explain it to you. one day a person an officer hel
jenny December 01, 2012 at 08:04 PM
helps is a victim-the next day the same person can be the suspect and they are just called to keep all safe daily. I am not tht impressed by doctors or their brains- I am impressed by their dedication to their education and time it takes to get te degree. most I have met came from doctors and although they owe they had a lot of help financially. you are right I don't like ur opinions but you do seem angry but perhaps you are stating facts as you see them. I am one of those people that say if you don't like something, change it don't complain about it or if you think all cops are bad, become one and then at least one won't be...
Andromeda December 01, 2012 at 08:12 PM
A convenience clerk risks harm from people, Jenny. It's more dangerous to be a $9/hr convenience store clerk than a cop. So should we pay convenience store clerks over $100,000 and a 3%@50 pension? If not for convenience store clerks you could not stop into your local 7-Eleven for your favorite snack and a cup of coffee. So they provide a valuable service @ $9/hr putting themselves at much risk and many probably have more formal education than a police officer. Think about it, Jenny. After 30 years a cop has to be making upwards of $140,000 easy in salary, OT, etc...So at 3%@50 at, let's say, age 52 he gets a annual pension benefit of 90% x $140,000 = $126,000. Now if he lives to an average age of a retired cop (81) (per CalPERS data) that means he collects his pension for 29 years. So 29 x $126,000 = $3.65 million. And that doesn't even include his COLA and medical subsidies!!! It's simple math, Jenny. Do the math like I just did. Btw, do you think family practice doctors with 10 years of higher education live like kings and queens on Newport Coast??? Hardly. Trust me. Cops live in their same neighborhoods.
Jim Gardner December 02, 2012 at 04:08 AM
Hi Andromeda I think we are in agreement that pensions for police (and firefighters) are a problem due to the pension spiking and the 3% @ 50 years of age formula. This is a real problem for cities because eventually the pension problem comes back to bite us in the form of higher and higher costs for services. We see this in Lake Forest where the % of the budget for safety has grown in the past few years from 30 to 36% and shows no sign of slowing down. In some cities in South County the % is even higher. Where we disagree is about salaries. As far as I can tell, the average salary for a police officer is around $50K, for a Sergeant it is about $60K, and for a Lieutenant it is about $80K. Here is a site that has info for Lake Forest - http://statetroopersalary.com/CA/Lake-Forest/salary/Police-Department-Salary These are not excessive salaries IMO. Where problems occur is when they need to get overtime because there are an insufficient number in the first place and good use is not made of civilians. Pension spiking is an additional problem. So while some police officers may indeed make more than $100,000 per year, IMO it isn't the salary per se but the management which is the problem here.
Andromeda December 02, 2012 at 04:59 AM
I have to disagree with you again, Mr. Gardner. Here is a database that shows the salaries and OT and premium pay for various ranks in the OC Sheriff's agency for 2007 (5 years ago). You can play around with the data base. But here is a link that shows the base salary for most Sergeants: $102,735. The base salary for most Deputy II's is about $82,000. In 2007 alone over half the deputies in the OCSD made over $100,000. And to determine total compensation you can double the salaries and OT since there is such a generous pension and medical benefit for cops. So total compensation would border $200,000 for rank and file cops in Orange County. So I don't know where you come up with $50k for a cop, $60k for a sergeant and $80k for a lieutenant. But it's certainly not here in Orange County. It's more than 50% higher than that. If you don't believe me look at the database yourself. And take into consideration that the average HOUSHOLD INCOME in Orange County is about $50k per year - and that is often with TWO wage earners in the home. http://www.ocregister.com/articles/pay-214126-salaries-sheriff.html?data=1&appSession=101523536092487#article-data Remember, Mr. Garder. The entry educational requirement to become a cop in most Orange County law enforcement agencies is a GED. And there are about 2000 applications for every opening. The laws of employment economics does not apply to police work like it does with most other occupations. That is clearly obvious.
Jim Gardner December 02, 2012 at 04:45 PM
Hi again, Using the database you provide, it shows that the base salaries for Deputy Sheriff 1 range from $44K to $78K, Sergeants are $102K, and I couldn't find a Lieutenant in the database you provide, though it is in the one I referenced. Entre level Deputies made between $27K and $66K, most of them making in the $40K range. This database illustrates exactly what I have been saying. The "take home" pay for police is so high because of the OT. For example, the first one listed, Deputy Sheriff William Motodera, made $78,395 salary but with "premium" and "overtime" he took home $196,534 - more than twice his salary. #2 on the list made the same base and took home $180,159. etc., etc. The problem is not the base salary, but the system that delivers so much "premium" and OT. Looking at the hundreds of people on the list I couldn't find a single person who didn't earn premium and OT, and I couldn't find a case where the % wasn't at least 30%. When you have a system where everyone is earning premium and OT you have to ask why they don't do a better job managing the system itself.
Andromeda December 02, 2012 at 05:10 PM
Mr. Gardner, we seem to disagree about what the facts are here. You said in your original comment that cops make about $50,000, that sergeants make $60,000 and that lieutenants make about $80,000 I showed you a 2007 data base for OCSD where deputy II's make $82,000, and where sergeants make $102,735. That is 50% higher in base salaries than your data purported. So can we agree that your data is not accurate for OCSD? And you claimed that Lieutenant salaries were about $80,000. Below you will find the database for Lieutenant salaries at OCSD in 2007 (5 years ago), You will note the average base salary is around $125,000. Over 50% higher than your data purported. http://www.ocregister.com/articles/pay-214126-salaries-sheriff.html?data=1&appSession=105023564101648&RecordID=&PageID=2&PrevPageID=1&cpipage=1&CPISortType=&CPIorderBy=#article-data And all these are in 2007 dollars. No doubt the salaries are even higher today. So for a job that has an entry educational requirement is a GED and gets 2000 applications per opening I believe the salaries are greatly inflated over what they should be. Yes, the OT and pensions and retirement ages are absurd. That is not even debatable or in question here. It is a total scam on the taxpayers. And both OCSD and OCFA have been called out the OT scam in the past over the blatant abuse of the taxpayer funds involved. We are supposed to be able to trust the police. How can we with these financial scams in place?
Andromeda December 02, 2012 at 05:32 PM
Jenny, you failed to respond to my counterargument and specific points in my comment so I assume that you are stumped and have no rational reply. Therefore, I contend that this debate has concluded. Thanks for your participation. I hope you learned something.
Andromeda December 03, 2012 at 05:36 AM
Well, Mr. Gardner, do you still believe that the salaries are 'reasonable' after viewing real life police salaries @ OCSD in 2007 dollars? They appear significantly higher compared to the data you furnished. I know that you are a social scientist and I assume that you have some basic knowledge in the law of employment economics. Btw, here are the 2007 salaries, premium pay and OT for the Lake Forest Police Service. Looks as if all officers assigned to Lake Forest made more than $100,000 in the 3 categories combined. The base pay for most deputies was about $83,000 and the sergeants made about $103,000. http://www.ocregister.com/articles/pay-214126-salaries-sheriff.html?data=1&appSession=67723607788537&RecordID=&PageID=2&PrevPageID=1&cpipage=1&CPISortType=&CPIorderBy=#article-data And we must keep in mind that this does not include pension compensation (3%@50) and medical benefits. These additional considerations would probably nearly double the salary and OT earnings since the public safety employee contribution to both are minimal. The taxpayer picks up the lion's share for sure. Probably 95%. You always seem to provide honest, intelligent and well-thought out opinions. Any further feedback is welcomed.
Fred Jones December 03, 2012 at 03:08 PM
It's apparent that Andromeda is clearly insane and that you have provided this nut a forum for anti-police rhetoric. This person hides their real name and is probably a criminal or worse (ever here of a nut called the Unibomber). Thank God most people don't have these same views. Thank You OC sheriffs who will protect me from this lunatic.
Jim Gardner December 03, 2012 at 03:22 PM
Hi Andromeda I don't want to beat this thing to death, but the database I gave you was 2012 data and that is the database I used in providing my figures. The url is up there so you can see the results for yourself. The 2007 database you offered was not a salary data base but rather was an actual list of salaries people were getting. This is a subtle difference but subtle nonetheless. In your responses you keep talking about Deputy 2 level status but you ignore the entre level (Trainee) and Deputy 1 levels. These two levels are clearly in line with the database I provided. The difference between the two reference points is with regard to the Sergeant pay. Your actual figures show salaries of $100K while my database shows an average salary of $60K. I suspect that my database is inaccurate here. If entry level police positions are in the range of $50K and Sergeant positions are about $100K I don't think these are "excessive" salaries. Sergeant positions are management positions and carry a lot of responsibility. Everyone in the city who has a comparable position (e.g., the Directors of every Department) has a higher salary than this. Some people (Asst and Deputy City Manager) have salaries twice this amount. I go back to my original position which I believe even your database supports. The excessive pensions that police receive are a result of OT and premium time spiking, not because the base salary is excessive. And these causes can be corrected.
Andromeda December 03, 2012 at 04:48 PM
I guess my next question would be "What would you consider excessive salaries for cops, most of whom have no college degree?" I did ask you if you were versed at all in the law of employment economics. Are you aware of what an average new college grad makes in the workplace, Mr. Gardner? About $30,000. So these Deputy 1 trainees that you speak of make well in excess of that and most don't even have college degrees. In fact, the standard educational entry requirement is only a HS diploma or a GED. Apparently you did not view what a Deputy 1 actually makes @ OCSD. Please note the BASE PAY here for Deputy 1's. It's in the neighborhood of $80,000. If you think that is 'reasonable' for a Deputy 1 when it takes a full career for many college grads to reach this level we are world's apart on this subject matter. http://www.ocregister.com/articles/pay-214126-salaries-sheriff.html?data=1&appSession=25323669834153#article-data Based on the data that I have provided to you it's pretty evident that the TOTAL COMPENSATION for a cop who's been on the job for, let's say, 5-15 years (Deputy 2 or Sergeant or perhaps a Lieutenant) to include pensions and medical benefits would be right in the neighborhood of $200,000 - No wonder local governments are going bankrupt. Normally you are a very fiscally conservative man who closely watches the nickles and dimes spent by our government. I must say that I am a little disappointed on your position here and it truly makes me wonder.
Fred Jones December 03, 2012 at 05:42 PM
With all respect and deepest honor, I want to share a list of the 2012 fallen officers. You deserve every dime earned if not more for your sacrifice. http://www.nleomf.org/facts/recently-fallen/recently-fallen-2012/
Andromeda December 03, 2012 at 06:06 PM
Never been arrested before in my life, Fred Jones. My criminal history is clean as a baby's nose. You just hate me because I am a taxpayer advocate and am tired of being gamed by government agencies that legally thieve from us. If you are an enemy of 1st amendment expression and transparency don't read the comments. It's that easy. No one forces you to read what I write. You should volunteer to pay another 30% over and above what you owe in your taxes this year. Tack on an extra 30% to your property taxes. But naturally you wouldn't do that, would you Mr. Big Mouth? :^)
Andromeda December 03, 2012 at 06:10 PM
How many OC cops have been killed in the line of duty in Orange County in the last decade, pal? You could count them on one hand and have several fingers remaining. More tree pruners and convenience store clerks have died in the line of duty. So please stop the dramatics and use them as justification to legally rob the taxpayers and bankrupt our local governments, Fred. Again, I urge you to pay a premium of 30% in property taxes over and above you owe for 2012 and 2013.
Andromeda December 03, 2012 at 07:02 PM
Any comment on the 2007 Deputy 1 base pay @ OCSD that I furnished for you, Mr. Gardner? Those numbers don't exactly jive with the numbers you provided, do they? Or is that the end of our discussion? ;)
Fred Jones December 03, 2012 at 08:26 PM
You calling me a big mouth is funny! HA! You are the one professing your dangerous manifesto and bullying everyone. Be a MAN and step outside of your alias! You are too cowardly because you can safely bully everyone on the Internet Furthermore, you require the death of a local police officer BEFORE you could justify their existence. What a SICK individual. And how DARE you trample on their souls! As a father of daughters, nothing made me feel more proud of our officers when the OC Sherriffs quickly found the KILLER of 5 year old Samantha Runnion. Would I pay a premium to keep my family safe... HELL yes. I don't want to WAIT until tragedy strikes to get that protection. You sling your lunatic ideas on these pages and expect us to all to buy into your insane manifesto. Now do us all a favor and MOVE out of OC. Better yet, move out of the State! Move to some lawless place and see how long you last. I guess then you can call the Pinkertons and ride out with a posse to catch Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. Lunatic.
Andromeda December 03, 2012 at 10:43 PM
And who exactly am I bullying, Fred old boy? The cops with the guns and the badges by simply speaking the truth about the manner in which the taxpayers are being legally robbed? You are not a friend of the truth, are ya, Fred? You would rather name-call, falsely accuse me of being a criminal or a terrorist of some sort for simply stating facts and defending the taxpayers. Shame on you. Just because police do their jobs and arrest bad guys doesn't mean that they should be able to turn around and rip off the taxpayers, Freddy. Does it? Or is that part of the deal? They arrest bad guys and we citizens are just supposed to shut up and submit?? Sounds alot like Germany 1939. America is supposed to be better than that. If you would pay a premium for 'safety' then do as I suggested. Pay a 30% premium over and above what your property tax bill requires. I dare ya, Freddy. Walk your talk. Better yet, why don't you donate that 30% premium to deceased Marine Sgt. Manuel Loggins' family? Sgt. Loggins was shot in the back several times by an OC sheriff deputy right in front of his 2 minor daughters as he sat unarmed in their family car in San Clemente. I'm sure his family could use the financial help over the holiday season.
Fred Jones December 03, 2012 at 11:47 PM
Wow... You truly are completely insane. Good thing not ONE single person has agreed with your manifesto. I do have faith in humanity. And once again you hide behind an alias name. Interney coward!! Stand up for what you believe in REAL life!
Andromeda December 04, 2012 at 03:43 AM
Yo, Freddy. How do we know you're "Fred Jones" as you claim to be? If you're so into full identity disclosure on internet why not post your DOB, address and phone number? Oh, you're brave but not quite that brave, eh homeboy? Are you a Barney Fife clone? heh. I have no manifesto. Only facts. If you are confused about the facts that I posted be specific and let me know. I'd be pleased as punch to clarify. In the meantime, chill down tough guy. You're a real hoot. :^)

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